Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Hello, Please forgive my poor translation. I am from the USA. I breed Testudo hermanni hermanni, but I have a couple that are in question. I'm afraid that may be hybrids. There are 3 females. They came to the U.S. in 1990 from Tuscany as sub-adults. I label each photo according to the specific question tortoiseshell. If anyone can help me to decide whether they are pure or if they are hybrids, I'll be very grateful. Thanks! 3 All females are in the range of 16 cm.
Hermanni # 1: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. There's a lot of black pigment on both sides of the gulars.
Hermanni # 2: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.
Hermanni # 3: 5 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken and are thin. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.
Hermanni # 1: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. There's a lot of black pigment on both sides of the gulars.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps9c9702ab.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...psdf093e48.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...psae0ed2d7.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps5af890df.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...psec432a47.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps7e2c9bb6.jpg
Hermanni # 2: 4 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken. The cheek stain is faded yellow. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...psc2e2e92e.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps682a8146.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps51f2bcc2.jpg
Hermanni # 3: 5 claws on each front foot. The stripes on the plastron are broken and are thin. The V-4 is missing a dark spot.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps7ef3f223.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps9a133c84.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...pscebe53d7.jpg
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Hi there and welcome to our forum!
I must admit that I'm not an expert in this field, but I asked to my colleagues that are way better than me and I'll get back at you asap. ;)
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Hello Chris .
First of all I apologize for my English and for the many mistakes .
Congratulations to the many species that breed is a real pleasure to have in the forum a person who raises our Thh even in another continent.
Personally, given the very careful analysis made by you , in spite of some particular does not correspond perfectly to the subspecies , I believe that all three specimens belong to 99% of the subspecies Testudo hermanni hermanni .
The indisputable many characters clearly indicate this . Besides the yellow color in contrast with the black carapace is in incofondibile .
Keep in mind that the black on Gulari is present in many phenotypes in Italy , the number of nails is often irrelevant , the fact that the bands of black on the plastron are not nice contrast together and sometimes more subtle does not determine anything. The yellow stain on his cheek in some phenotypes Italian is not even present , however, and with age and time may be less visible. The only thing really strange and peculiar is the almost total absence of black or in the middle of the fourth vertical shield in the sample 2 and 3. But not for this can be considered hybrids.
Congratulations also because from the pictures you can clearly see that there are three very healthy and beautiful specimens grown really well.
The first is if I'm not mistaken the older (over 30 years) while the second and the third are younger (at least 20 years).
I hope I was clear enough and forgive the many mistakes as I have also used a translator. :wink-:
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
:shocked-:
Congratulations indeed an incredible collection.
I think that in Italy a few breeders (that I know of none) if there are breeding so many phenotypes of Testudo hermanni hermanni.
But you have specimens of both sexes and you can reproduce all these phenotypes?
Where do you live exactly? What climate and seasons are you?
Recognizing the many phenotypes is definitely not easy but I have sufficient knowledge of the specimens in the photos look absolutely come from the areas that you indicated. You have all my respect.
The specimen from Sicily seems is the largest specimen and old, the youngest Toscano and that of the smallest Mallorca.
At this point it would be nice to also see how and where the breed of course when you have the desire and time. :wink-:
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Thank you! :happy-:
I live in New Jersey and our climate is somewhat similar to certain areas in Italy. Yes I have males and females of all the phenotypes that I breed.
Yes you are correct about the ages!
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
However, a few specimens have is certainly wild.
How much space to devote each pair?
How many young are born to each couple?
What legal requirements are there in the U.S. for the detention, care and breeding of European species of Testudo?
Sorry so many questions but curiosity is great.
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
I love the questions. It is hard to talk to other Americans about things like this because so many of them focus their attention on the same species. Testudo hermanni hermanni are VERY rare in USA collections. This is why I choose to correspond with people of Italy, France and Spain.
The legal requirements are valid CITES documents, individual microchips, birth year, written ministry approval, written United States Fish and Wildlife approval, customs approval and the buyer must have a valid import/export license. It is very hard to do, but it is very worth it.
I live on farmland. I have 10 acres all devoted to turtles, mainly Testudo species. Each phenotype of Testudo hermanni hermanni is provided with very large outdoor accommodations. Each year, I produce more than 50 babies. Some phenotypes like Mallorca do not produce as much as some of the Italian phenotypes. However, it is all very rewarding.
Each year, my state fish and wildlife service visits my home to make sure I am following the law. They make sure that I am keeping the turtles very healthy and clean.
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Really very interesting.
That there are laws and controls is always a good one.
Births are made through an incubator or even natural births (eggs incubated in the ground)?
How many depositions to take place a couple of average during the year?
Small newborn do play the first hibernation? Outdoors or controlled?
Probably the few births Mallorca phenotype is due to the fact that being the smaller specimen is also less eggs and less deposition of others or am I wrong?
But you can sell the specimens in the U.S. and abroad?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Yes I can sell the offspring here but are very expensive. The number of eggs varies between phenotypes (2 to 3 eggs for Sicilian and 2 clutches, less for Calabria and more for Tuscany). The young are not hibernated the first year. All births take place in an incubator but some will hatch naturally in the ground if a nest is not collected. Yes you are correct about Mallorca! Sometimes they only deposit 1 egg.
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
I thought that the phenotype Sicilian did more eggs (at least 10) in view of the larger size and weight at or above the eye around 1kg (2.2 lb - pound). I was wrong weight?
What percentage of hatching eggs incubated for you?
However organizzandoti I think it's possible to make a short hibernation and maybe even checked the new born. Have you ever tried it? You know the lethargy is also important in the first year of life.
However it would be nice to see the pictures of the births of each phenotype.
For feeding in the wild in your area you will find wild herbs suitable (those present here in Italy) or directly instead you grow herbs in different precincts?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Yes some of the large Sicilian will do many more eggs. That was just an average number.
My hatching rate is usually 90-95% success. I have hibernated baby Testudo ibera, boettgeri and margintata and will probably hibernate the Thh this year as well.
For feeding we use natural herbs and weeds, we also grow our own and use organic dried herbs mixed in with other foods.
I will take more photos at another time, but for now here are some Sicily hatching!
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...psdb24b102.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...ps988f1822.jpg
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Thank you so much for all the details and availability. :wink-:
The photos are amazing! :happy-:
You have a breeding of many species, subspecies and phenotypes incredible.
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Hi there, sorry I was late! Yesterday I had not the chance to join my PC, and it was really hard to compare them with the smartphone, with several pictures missing. BTW, I was stunned by your posts: your specimens are really healthy and well-raised by the pictures.
You're from NJ, so it should not be so hard to breed THHs in your country, by the fact temperatures and humidity are quite similar to ours ( curiosity: are you from the north of NJ? Because it is the only area apparently different ).
As far as I can see, I'd say you own beautiful THHs.
My only doubt is on the second one ( Hermanni #2 ), which I'd classify as a THH anyway, but the suture on the plastron are ( referring to the pictures ) quite the same lenght. On the other hand, it has got the yellow cheek, the proper coloration of a THH, so I'd say it is a THH as well.
Try posting some more pictures of your second specimen, so that we'll try to figure it out :)
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Fine, I say THH as well. From the latest pictures I didn't notice the suture was not specular. By visualizing this last picture you posted, I can confirm this is a THH. :)
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Thank you for posting pictures from your "Haven" :)
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Great photos! You remember who these animals exported and the country of origin of certificates? From the Database of CITES, there are in fact Italy's exports never to the U.S., and therefore it is very difficult to be sure of the origin.
Personally, the images pair compatible with specimens from Tuscany, the rest I do not know what to say. Only those who have collected these animals can respond...
Testudo hermanni hermanni in the U.S. are worth many thousands of dollars each.
- - - Aggiornato - - -
The difficulty in having many depositions and eggs, may depend on the location and climate. I do not think the east coast has a Mediterranean climate like that, even if we are at the same latitude. To find a Mediterranean climate in the U.S., you have to go to the west coast around LA.
If you want excellent breeders, you have to search for Thh of Sardinia and Corsica. My sardines lay up to three times from 5 to 7 eggs.
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Hello and thank you!
Yes Testudo hermanni hermanni are worth thousands of dollars here. These were all imported from German breeders who collected the original adults in the 1970s and 1980s. Most of them are specific to origin and phenotype.
Each year many babies are born but the average clutch size is small. I do not know if I will ever find any Sardinia hermanni but I have a friend who keeps Corsica hermanni. We also hatch many Testudo marginata.
The climate here works very well for the tortoises based on more than 30 years of keeping Testudo. Even Testudo graeca cyrenaica does well for us here. However, additional heat sources must sometimes be provided in artificial shelters to keep the animals warm and dry. Sometimes our night temperatures will drop and it can get wet from an abundance of rain. Sometimes it can be hard work to keep up with the weather, but we always manage to keep the tortoises healthy and productive. They are my passion!
Re: Testudo hermanni hermanni pura?
Hello, if you can comfort, even here in Italy the number of births per female does not exceed an average of 7-8 per year. Unlike Testudo marginata... The females born in my farm arrive to lay 45-51 eggs per year.
That's why the Germans are happy to go in Italy... They bring back a souvenir! And I think they do so even now.
